I think about all of the time that Moses had to suffer in his thoughts, in his loneliness, and perhaps even, guilt. He flees the only home he’s ever known and goes to Midian where he lives for 40 years. Now within that time he is blessed with a family and a new occupation, and other things no doubt, but was he ever haunted by his past, his decision to leave familiarity, his motivation for leaving? If he did, that’s a suffering of his own creation. I’m sure he had soooo much time to think. Been there and bought the t-shirt😏 But even in a suffering of our own creation there is still comfort in knowing that as we learn from our choices/actions, we can rejoice in the suffering that has resulted because we’re developing spiritually. I don’t know about you, but when I suffer I tend to draw more near to God because of my desperation. I tend to seek his presence and leading much more closely than I was before. I wonder what that process looked like for Moses?
I want to leave you with a quote from Chuck Swindoll:
"When I ask people when they really grew spiritually, they never describe an easy time. Never."
The fragment “refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter” grabbed me today. Not only did Moses turn away from a life of power and privilege, but he also turned away from the people who raised him. But then God gave him a Jethro. And a wife. And a family. It was a nice reminder that when God calls us away from something, he’s always calling us in to something better.
I’m processing suffering today, and I’m not sure that I know what true suffering is. Sure, there are hard things in my life, but is that suffering “for the cause of God”? The hard things aren’t happening because of my faith in Christ… so I guess my prayer is that God will show me what suffering for Christ looks like. And how I can choose to suffer with His people. Moses’ choices were big - to murder, leave his home, start a new life. Is the choice to suffer always a big one? Or are there smaller, everyday choices that allow me to “suffer in solidarity” with His people? More questions than answers today - thank you Jen!!
This question haunted me for years! It's a good haunting. Let it hang around. Let it talk to you.
One of the first things we did on purpose to suffer with God's people was our choice to put our kids in a struggling elementary school (something like 75% below the poverty line, 80% spoke Spanish at home, worst standardized test cores in the county). It was a whole thing. I was the president of the tiniest, brokest PTA in elementary school history. It was definitely elective suffering on the behalf of others, but as the years have gone on we've seen how dramatically that season shaped our kids (for the good!). Anyway, get me to tell you about it sometime.
I share your thoughts on this. Suffering seems like such a big depiction. To suffer with God’s people seems to imply persecution, which also feels like a big label that I don’t want to slap onto a situation willy nilly. One thought that did come to mind was the practice of fasting and how one of its fruits is a growing compassion for the poor and hungry. The universal church fasts together on specific days throughout the year. Perhaps this is a method of joining in on the suffering together. And perhaps suffering is more about sitting with the global church in her pain and persecution rather than my own individual dealings. Maybe that means sacrificing my wants and even my needs for the body of Christ.
Fasting is a perfect picture of this! Elective poverty would be similar. Moving into a poor neighborhood and forgoing the privileges of wealth. Missionaries who choose to live like the culture they enter. I like the way you're thinking...
It’s definitely given me more to think about. I think this could extend to long term service and the sacrifice that goes along with it (missions, foster care, the messy parts of discipleship). Perhaps the church in the U.S. has bought into personal boundaries too much. I definitely have. Self-preservation has excused me from uncomfortable, imperfect, and beautiful work for much of my walk with Jesus, but I don’t want that to be my story.
This section (and others we’ve discussed) mentions “were not afraid” but going to the OT, we read there was some fear. I haven’t really put a lot of thought into why the wording is different. Today, my takeaway is my faith is what allows me to take action even when I’m afraid. Choosing to trust in God’s plan even when I don’t understand or I doubt. My faith doesn’t diminish just because I question, fear or doubt. My faith can increase when I feel those and make a choice to trust God.
I agree! I often feel fear when God may be asking me to take a new step. I think that is part of the process of growth in faith. Fear does not diminish our faith, it is one of those things that is sacrificed to God as we move forward in what we are asked to do!
I believe that hardships, sufferings, difficulties, challenges are the steps that cultivate faith, growing the fruits of the spirit or the characteristics of God. These "sufferings" are the building blocks of our foundation of faith. I always felt the conviction to cultivate faith in the very small things. When starting out, not having a big savings; reaching out to someone in my bible study who was "not like me", a child is sick and must go to the children's hospital, extra people for dinner unplanned, a tumor, moving abroad, mental health issues with extended family members, long-term health crisis, and on and on. When we surrender to Christ, he will give us ways to grow.
I hope one day, I will say like Paul did, in Romans 5: 1 - 5, "I can rejoice too when we run into problems and trials for we know that they help us develop endurance. And endurance develops strength of character, and character strengthens our confident hope in salvation. This hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, …". When I read Romans 5, I can see the faith journey being played out over life's small challenges that lead to bigger ones and bigger victories, helping me to learn of Gods' great love and great redeeming power, all the while building faith!
When Moses saw the mistreatment of the Jews, he knew it was wrong. He sided with his people even though those people would often grumble and not understand about God.
Christ chose to suffer for us, despite our continued sin. So I can see why the Hebrews author was connecting Moses to Christ.
I do think Moses grew in faith. Maybe he was more fearful in his actions at first.
Really appreciate this look at Moses calculating future reward vs present comfort. The idea that reproach could be "greater wealth" is such a counterintutive framework that I've been thinking about lately with career stuff. The hardest part isn't the choice itself but maintaining that long-term view when everyones around you is optimizing for now
I am struck by "Moses CHOSE". All of the people in the previous verses of chapter 11 had a choice and they all chose God. Choosing God doesn't relieve anyone from suffering, but it does help them endure. Faith lights the path of endurance.
The end of v. 27 ("...for Moses persevered as one who sees him who is invisible.") reminded me of the early days of this study when we were thinking about what is visible and invisible. Moses is one of the few characters in the OT who literally saw God's face and lived to tell about it, but that came later. Or maybe he had seen God while still in Egypt and it's not recorded. In any case, it can encourage us to look for God because "seeing" him allows us to persevere.
A thought I'm considering is that, were we to ask Moses, I don't think he would have AT THAT time said he was choosing suffering. I think he would have said he was terrified. But that fear didn't lead him to apathy or prevent him from action, whether it was a moral failing or not. His moves allowed God to step in and work with and use him, though. At that time, I doubt he would have even perceived God's moving. Looking back, God was with him in basket and more.
More and more these days, I'm hearing writers and spiritual guides reminding us that the way of discipleship is the way of suffering. In the Fall, our church dwelt in 2 Corinthians, with its profound glimpses of Paul's suffering and his reminder that God's grace is sufficient, made perfect in our weakness. Just the other day, a new book arrived, Curt Thompson's The Deepest Place: Suffering and the Formation of Hope. Can't wait to get into this.
What I can’t seem to shake is this looking ahead that Moses is doing. This perseverance being linked to Moses seeing the one who invisible. What I hear in my spirit is, keep looking at me until you see me. I’m everywhere. I’m on the pages of scripture, I’m dwelling in you and with you. Moses knew something about God’s identity that made him surrender on a level that’s mind blowing because there is no account of him knowing God like we do today so I’m left to think…he, being God, knew him and that was the difference and he made himself known to him. Just my thoughts.
During times of suffering, a gracious gift from the Spirit to me is the ability to see the bigger picture and remember the incredible moments of "peace that passes all understanding" that floats down like a warm blanket on a frigid morning.
Suffering comes in many forms - personal physical pain and inconvenience, financial depletion, sharing in others' sufferings, admitting failure and weakness, fear that paralizes, service that leaves me exhausted, living with deep grief and more. Yet, in and through these times, the thanksgiving that Jesus knows and understands, that God hears my cry and the remembrance of the better time and place to come carries me through these challenges. Sometimes I am even unable to word a prayer, but I am assured that the Spirit "has my back" before the Father and that "everything works together for good" and I keep going.
As I read Hebrews 11, I hear the crescendo as the writer describes the experience of each person. I get caught up in the momentum of intensity and the thrill of living in faith because of what is to come.
What a grace it is to have the Word! It's there when life gets hard.
I think about all of the time that Moses had to suffer in his thoughts, in his loneliness, and perhaps even, guilt. He flees the only home he’s ever known and goes to Midian where he lives for 40 years. Now within that time he is blessed with a family and a new occupation, and other things no doubt, but was he ever haunted by his past, his decision to leave familiarity, his motivation for leaving? If he did, that’s a suffering of his own creation. I’m sure he had soooo much time to think. Been there and bought the t-shirt😏 But even in a suffering of our own creation there is still comfort in knowing that as we learn from our choices/actions, we can rejoice in the suffering that has resulted because we’re developing spiritually. I don’t know about you, but when I suffer I tend to draw more near to God because of my desperation. I tend to seek his presence and leading much more closely than I was before. I wonder what that process looked like for Moses?
I want to leave you with a quote from Chuck Swindoll:
"When I ask people when they really grew spiritually, they never describe an easy time. Never."
Amen
I agree with you, Beth. Suffering in the hand of Yahweh, submitted to His healing redemption does cause growth in so many ways.
The fragment “refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter” grabbed me today. Not only did Moses turn away from a life of power and privilege, but he also turned away from the people who raised him. But then God gave him a Jethro. And a wife. And a family. It was a nice reminder that when God calls us away from something, he’s always calling us in to something better.
I like that
I’m processing suffering today, and I’m not sure that I know what true suffering is. Sure, there are hard things in my life, but is that suffering “for the cause of God”? The hard things aren’t happening because of my faith in Christ… so I guess my prayer is that God will show me what suffering for Christ looks like. And how I can choose to suffer with His people. Moses’ choices were big - to murder, leave his home, start a new life. Is the choice to suffer always a big one? Or are there smaller, everyday choices that allow me to “suffer in solidarity” with His people? More questions than answers today - thank you Jen!!
This question haunted me for years! It's a good haunting. Let it hang around. Let it talk to you.
One of the first things we did on purpose to suffer with God's people was our choice to put our kids in a struggling elementary school (something like 75% below the poverty line, 80% spoke Spanish at home, worst standardized test cores in the county). It was a whole thing. I was the president of the tiniest, brokest PTA in elementary school history. It was definitely elective suffering on the behalf of others, but as the years have gone on we've seen how dramatically that season shaped our kids (for the good!). Anyway, get me to tell you about it sometime.
I would love to hear that story.
I'll have to find some time and tell it! I think it may work its way into the next season of The Happiest Saddest People (my audio memoir podcast).
I share your thoughts on this. Suffering seems like such a big depiction. To suffer with God’s people seems to imply persecution, which also feels like a big label that I don’t want to slap onto a situation willy nilly. One thought that did come to mind was the practice of fasting and how one of its fruits is a growing compassion for the poor and hungry. The universal church fasts together on specific days throughout the year. Perhaps this is a method of joining in on the suffering together. And perhaps suffering is more about sitting with the global church in her pain and persecution rather than my own individual dealings. Maybe that means sacrificing my wants and even my needs for the body of Christ.
Fasting is a perfect picture of this! Elective poverty would be similar. Moving into a poor neighborhood and forgoing the privileges of wealth. Missionaries who choose to live like the culture they enter. I like the way you're thinking...
It’s definitely given me more to think about. I think this could extend to long term service and the sacrifice that goes along with it (missions, foster care, the messy parts of discipleship). Perhaps the church in the U.S. has bought into personal boundaries too much. I definitely have. Self-preservation has excused me from uncomfortable, imperfect, and beautiful work for much of my walk with Jesus, but I don’t want that to be my story.
"I don’t want that to be my story." Yes and amen!
This section (and others we’ve discussed) mentions “were not afraid” but going to the OT, we read there was some fear. I haven’t really put a lot of thought into why the wording is different. Today, my takeaway is my faith is what allows me to take action even when I’m afraid. Choosing to trust in God’s plan even when I don’t understand or I doubt. My faith doesn’t diminish just because I question, fear or doubt. My faith can increase when I feel those and make a choice to trust God.
I agree! I often feel fear when God may be asking me to take a new step. I think that is part of the process of growth in faith. Fear does not diminish our faith, it is one of those things that is sacrificed to God as we move forward in what we are asked to do!
I believe that hardships, sufferings, difficulties, challenges are the steps that cultivate faith, growing the fruits of the spirit or the characteristics of God. These "sufferings" are the building blocks of our foundation of faith. I always felt the conviction to cultivate faith in the very small things. When starting out, not having a big savings; reaching out to someone in my bible study who was "not like me", a child is sick and must go to the children's hospital, extra people for dinner unplanned, a tumor, moving abroad, mental health issues with extended family members, long-term health crisis, and on and on. When we surrender to Christ, he will give us ways to grow.
I hope one day, I will say like Paul did, in Romans 5: 1 - 5, "I can rejoice too when we run into problems and trials for we know that they help us develop endurance. And endurance develops strength of character, and character strengthens our confident hope in salvation. This hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, …". When I read Romans 5, I can see the faith journey being played out over life's small challenges that lead to bigger ones and bigger victories, helping me to learn of Gods' great love and great redeeming power, all the while building faith!
When Moses saw the mistreatment of the Jews, he knew it was wrong. He sided with his people even though those people would often grumble and not understand about God.
Christ chose to suffer for us, despite our continued sin. So I can see why the Hebrews author was connecting Moses to Christ.
I do think Moses grew in faith. Maybe he was more fearful in his actions at first.
I like the way you drew the parallel!
Really appreciate this look at Moses calculating future reward vs present comfort. The idea that reproach could be "greater wealth" is such a counterintutive framework that I've been thinking about lately with career stuff. The hardest part isn't the choice itself but maintaining that long-term view when everyones around you is optimizing for now
Maintaining the long term view—so necessary to make the right decisions even though they bring suffering.
I am struck by "Moses CHOSE". All of the people in the previous verses of chapter 11 had a choice and they all chose God. Choosing God doesn't relieve anyone from suffering, but it does help them endure. Faith lights the path of endurance.
The end of v. 27 ("...for Moses persevered as one who sees him who is invisible.") reminded me of the early days of this study when we were thinking about what is visible and invisible. Moses is one of the few characters in the OT who literally saw God's face and lived to tell about it, but that came later. Or maybe he had seen God while still in Egypt and it's not recorded. In any case, it can encourage us to look for God because "seeing" him allows us to persevere.
Amen!
A thought I'm considering is that, were we to ask Moses, I don't think he would have AT THAT time said he was choosing suffering. I think he would have said he was terrified. But that fear didn't lead him to apathy or prevent him from action, whether it was a moral failing or not. His moves allowed God to step in and work with and use him, though. At that time, I doubt he would have even perceived God's moving. Looking back, God was with him in basket and more.
I think you make a fair point, David.
More and more these days, I'm hearing writers and spiritual guides reminding us that the way of discipleship is the way of suffering. In the Fall, our church dwelt in 2 Corinthians, with its profound glimpses of Paul's suffering and his reminder that God's grace is sufficient, made perfect in our weakness. Just the other day, a new book arrived, Curt Thompson's The Deepest Place: Suffering and the Formation of Hope. Can't wait to get into this.
What I can’t seem to shake is this looking ahead that Moses is doing. This perseverance being linked to Moses seeing the one who invisible. What I hear in my spirit is, keep looking at me until you see me. I’m everywhere. I’m on the pages of scripture, I’m dwelling in you and with you. Moses knew something about God’s identity that made him surrender on a level that’s mind blowing because there is no account of him knowing God like we do today so I’m left to think…he, being God, knew him and that was the difference and he made himself known to him. Just my thoughts.
During times of suffering, a gracious gift from the Spirit to me is the ability to see the bigger picture and remember the incredible moments of "peace that passes all understanding" that floats down like a warm blanket on a frigid morning.
Suffering comes in many forms - personal physical pain and inconvenience, financial depletion, sharing in others' sufferings, admitting failure and weakness, fear that paralizes, service that leaves me exhausted, living with deep grief and more. Yet, in and through these times, the thanksgiving that Jesus knows and understands, that God hears my cry and the remembrance of the better time and place to come carries me through these challenges. Sometimes I am even unable to word a prayer, but I am assured that the Spirit "has my back" before the Father and that "everything works together for good" and I keep going.
As I read Hebrews 11, I hear the crescendo as the writer describes the experience of each person. I get caught up in the momentum of intensity and the thrill of living in faith because of what is to come.
What a grace it is to have the Word! It's there when life gets hard.